Blueprint Law's Matthew Hawken is joined by Charlie Chen (Managing Director, Archblock), Alyse Sue (Director of Metaverse, KPMG) and Apurva Chiranewala (General Manager, Block Earner) for a virtual lunchtime round-table discussion on the challenges and opportunities in adopting blockchain based software platforms NFT's and other Web3 applications.
Please note that this transcript has been edited for readability purposes. This means that some parts of the conversation may have been revised or condensed to make it easier to follow, however, we have done our best to preserve the original meaning and intent of the conversation.
What I might do is start off, perhaps with you, Charlie, and ask you what are the main differences between web1, web2 and web3? What are the main differences between business structures?
Yeah, thanks Matt and thank you Blueprint Law for this opportunity. It’s great to meet everyone here virtually. I will start with a brief introduction of the key differences between those three concepts and how we evolved to this point. For some of you that may remember the internet back in the early 90s, and maybe earlier, web1 or the first iteration of the internet was just web pages where it was one-sided content consumption. You open something, you observe something, and consume it. That's about it.
Web2 is a concept that we are a bit more familiar with. We see that with social media platforms today, where it is a two-way content consumption dialogue. In many cases you may have seen media releases about us as individuals being the product of web2 with ads targeted to us. If we’re using these social media platforms for free, who's paying?
I’ve highlighted that point specifically because there's been a lot of challenges and a lot of thinking around whether that is the future of the internet that we want to live in where a lot of elements of our privacy or elements of what data we’re sharing is being shared with who knows who, all these centralised organisations that are collecting the data and what are they using it for…and, well, that’s a rabbit hole to go down.
Then you have the emergence of this concept called web3. If I was to summarise, it is a concept of decentralisation. Web2 is a more centralised approach to organisations, how they are managed, how they run, how they operate, their business models etc. Web3 being power given to the broader masses in terms of decentralisation. I want to make a distinction because that is the web3 context. Sometimes we mix it up with blockchain, which is the technology that enables all of that.
Through the rest of this panel, we’ll talk a lot about some of the real-life use cases or some of the problems that web3, or elements within web3 can solve for. At a high level, we’ve gone through a journey from one-sided content consumption to a more centralised two-sided content consumption, but where we could potentially become a product of that ecosystem which has its challenges, to now evolving into web3, which is about decentralisation and power more of it to the masses rather than centralised control.
That's fantastic Charlie. On the subject of centralisation, I'll just turn to you, Apurva. There was something that you said recently referring back to 2008/2009 after the GFC and more recently that there seem to be inflexion points where people are starting to question whether a centralised business structure is right both for consumers and more widely for society. When there is a wave of adoption for technology as a result of these inflection points, you really want to be amongst the first hundred thousand people building something.
I wonder if you could expand a little bit on that in terms of what leads you to think that there’s an inflection point arriving at the moment and what are the sort of platforms that you are referring to when you talk about the sort of things you're likely to want to be involved in building?
Thank you so much for that question, Matt, and thanks for the very kind introduction earlier. I wish I was 50% of all of those nice things that you mentioned about me.
So, you're right, I did mention, and I still firmly believe, that we are going through a much broader, probably decades long, change and that this will take its own time and it will evolve in its own way, as we see these changes come through the transition from web2 to web3, some are now calling web4 starting to emerge with AI now on the horizon, the emergence of web3 and web4 in some way, shape and form.
My specific comment that you were alluding to, Matt, was primarily targeted at the traditional finance industry, that led to the foundation of decentralisation as a better solution to centralised banking systems.
I'll just borrow Charlie's example of going back to the 90s and thinking about when the internet came about in the beginning. There were a lot of questions raised about the internet’s viability as a global system – people occasionally spoke about how telephones, newspapers, fax machines and postal services essentially do the same thing that the internet was trying to solve for, and they were asking why we would need to invest so much in infrastructure to be able to send messages when that infrastructure already existed.
Now if you fast forward to today, I think a lot of those questions have been answered. But if you look at the modern-day banking system, it's largely remained unchanged for 200 years or so, and while the internet came and evolved and globalised a lot of the other industries, whether you think of shipping, retail media, distribution of media, travel and so on, to a large extent, the internet was not able to influence or change the fundamentals of the modern day financial system.
To a large extent, the financial system has remained native to each and every market. The top four banks in the U.S. are the top four banks in the U.S. – they're not the top four banks in the world. The top four banks in Australia are the top four banks in Australia and so on. So, they've be siloed regionally with their own governance.
What we are starting to see on the financial side is that finance is starting to globalise as a result of blockchain technology and DeFi. That was what I was alluding to in that particular comment – that hyper centralization in certain industries is, perhaps, in the long run, not the best thing.
The GFC was an example of that crisis. It just so happens that we are currently living through another banking crisis in the last couple of weeks. We are starting to see similar fears in Europe and in the U.S. from a handful of decision makers on the banking side, making long term decisions around the prudence of how the financial system operates. So that is just to qualify my statement, but that is not to say that the benefits of decentralisation are limited to the banking system.
Of course, there are benefits of centralised systems such as rapid decision making and centralised structures, but with the advent of web2, we have forced centralised structures and centralised systems onto every major industry.
Again, using Charlie's example of web2, the internet today is largely governed by a handful of companies. What you see, how you operate and what you think about the world is handled by maybe 20 centralised companies. So, the CEOs and the leadership in these companies can, to a very large extent, influence and change public opinions, policies and decision making in large parts of the world. That is extremely scary in a lot of ways.
So, there is an element of wanting to create either a hybrid or a semi-decentralised or a semi-centralised system and I think web3 is starting to provide that option, and starting to show us how we might be able to challenge the dominance of centralised systems so that a few people are not able to control the narrative. So, that's sort of the very high level, overarching commentary.
For those who are listening in, one of the questions that comes to my mind is, is there a way for clients with online services, or with parts of their business online, to start analysing the effects of decentralised businesses on their own models?
I think that's a really good question, and I think the web3 industry and the builders in the industry are trying to give a good answer to that question by way of building. There are certainly examples out there where traditionally web2 or centralised companies have started to look at decentralisation as a pilot. I'm sure that Alyse, as part of her work with KPMG, is privy to a lot of examples where people are starting to question ways in which they can bring web3 into their day-to-day business structures.
Some examples that I'd like to share straight off the bat – let’s take YouTube as a hypothetical example. Everyone has used it at some point. I, for one, use it very extensively as a source of information and knowledge. It's almost become my new teacher and it's the best way to learn something quick and dirty.
YouTube is a very good example of a web2 application that, to a very large extent, is centralised and incentivises the content creator and, of course, keeps a large chunk of its revenue for itself as a company, which of course is the parent company, Google, in this case.
In a very hypothetical example, if YouTube were to create another brand of its own which is a web3 version of YouTube and essentially split their revenue equally between itself, the content creator, and the viewer, imagine the power of scale that it could bring to that business.
So, if you had the YouTube of today and you had a competitive product that was actually sharing revenue with the viewer, how many viewers would switch overnight to this new product because now they are making money while watching a video? Imagine the scale at which it would be able to grow with just the revenue share broken down into three equal parts. That then creates that whole network effect that really rapidly goes, assuming of course that the content between both these platforms is exactly the same – there's nothing stopping a person creating content for YouTube from posting the same content on this platform.
There are examples of existing browsers like Brave that are doing something very similar. It's a really good example of an application that's been out there in the web3 ecosystem, challenging the dominance of Chrome as a browser. I know a lot of people in the room probably already using that, I'm actually dialed in from a Brave browser as well, and I'm probably making a little money by just using it on a day-to-day basis. These are some very simple consumer-facing examples.
Of course, on the B2B side of things, there are lots of applications where businesses can start to create more transparency between businesses that actually traditionally based on relationships of trust. So, one of the beautiful bits about web3 is it operates in a trust-less environment, not a trust-based environment.
Through smart contracts through blockchain tech, you can reduce the level of trust you need to have before making decisions. Because you can actually embed decisions into smart contracts so that your vendors or partners can be paid based on conditions that they're satisfying without you having to trust them or to know who and where they are, what they're doing and how they're doing it.
Of course, I'm being very theoretical. It starts to get slightly technical if you start going into the contract side of this. I'm sure there are better experts on this problem who can talk about that in a bit more detail, but hopefully this gives you an idea of applications that are already there and being used at the moment in real life by companies that are starting to look at this transition.
That's tremendous and those are wonderful examples. I think it gives you a real, tangible sense of how a centralised business might change its business model, and how it might be subject to competition from new entrants, using these decentralised business models.
On that example about the YouTube competitor web3 version – it's conceptual, but there are people trying to build that. So, if you Google “web3 social media platform”, you will find some attempts to do that. The revenue model is a great example – if you take LinkedIn, Facebook or YouTube as an example, people spend years building a profile or channel and accumulating followers. All it takes, is for the platform to ban the account and that’s it, your years of effort are wasted. So, the other attribute of these web3 social media platforms, is that the user has control over all their efforts, content and followers etc.
This is an interesting topic, so I'll continue on the business models. There were two or three other business models that I was thinking about exploring before, and Apurva already touched on one of those. He was talking about the marketplaces and how you can tokenise them with YouTube an example.
Another example is Uber – what if to hail a ride on the Uber service you needed to buy Uber tokens. Then as a driver signing up to Uber, you would also be paid in the Uber tokens so that you're actually creating your own economy or ecosystem that is very sticky, and that may also represent a different or new revenue stream or business model for you.
The value of your company increases when the token price increases, and that's actually backed by the real value of a real business. A lot of token projects probably don't have real businesses or real products and services backing them, but in this case, it makes sense to introduce a token. Some of you on this call may already operate marketplaces and it could be something you consider in the future.
The second type of business model I was exploring was around tokenisation of real-world assets. In decentralised finance you can earn rewards for locking up or staking an asset. Let's use the wine industry as an example. You could tokenise the wine by staking it, which means just locking it up. So, in a real world example, it's like creating a vintage of the wine and also representing the vintage process on chain by locking it up. You would be rewarding for locking up the wine and not drinking it immediately because when you lock the wine up and you create a vintage, it becomes more valuable in the process.
The third business model I was exploring is subscription DOAs. What if Amazon Prime launched as a tokenised version where when you buy a subscription and become an Amazon Prime subscriber, you're buying into the business as well. You have an incentive to introduce all your friends and family to also become subscription holders because then it benefits you as well.
So, there's all these network affects you can create. With their subscription DOA, I'm talking about decentralised autonomous organisations, usually when you have people join your DOA, that person becomes a member of your DOA and they also could be considered an employee, an investor and also a customer of the products or services the DOA produces.
Interesting Alyse. In another session you stated that you think that there's a need to combine Metaverse and AI together, as they are working together as technologies to enable web3 expansion. Perhaps you could talk a little bit more about that area?
My first job as a developer was building smart contracts as wrappers around machine learning codes. That was my first introduction into web3. Also, one of the first tokens I bought was SingularityNET, also known as AGIX. In recent days, it's actually pumped so all the AI-based tokens have suddenly gained interest off the back of the release of ChatGPT.
So, a lot has changed in the last couple of days and weeks. We had the release of ChatGPT4 – it's available through Bing AI, so you don't actually need to pay a subscription to access that – and then, of course, there’s all these changes in the banking world, which have also increased the demand for Bitcoin and other crypto.
If I expanded on the topic of the intersection of AI and Metaverse or, blockchain technologies, then I can think of three types of technologies that AI touches on and has massive impact: VR, virtual worlds and web3 in general – you could put NFTs or DOAs into the web3 bucket.
In terms of VR, VR applications are very difficult to build when usually, as a business, you would need to engage an external agency to do this. These days, you could use ChatGPT to your advantage to generate code and then put it into a code editor and run it. From there you just need to figure out a way to get your VR app into the App Store. It's become a lot easier to create POCs. Perhaps when you want to create something more scalable that you can take to market, that's when you would want to consider going out to market.
Why I'm mentioning this is that there are massive cost savings. Previously just to get to a POC you probably would have spent at least hundred thousand dollars, or maybe even half a million dollars with an external agency. These days you could probably do it within your team for very little cost. So doing POCs and MVPs have become cheaper for VR apps than virtual worlds.
Where AI has impacted this is that a lot of people have built using the ChatGPT3, ChatGPT3.5 or ChatGPT4 APIs to create their own applications on top of that. Which, just through text prompts, allow you to create things like digital avatars, 3D module models, and even digital assets that can be used in virtual worlds. It's no longer just for people with specialised skills. You can do it by yourself, and you just need to figure out how to upload it into the platform that you want to use your digital asset in. I'm sure ChatGPT can help with that as well.
Lastly, it has affected launching tokens or launching your own NFT collection. Of course, ChatGPT has changed all this. These days my personal feeling is that if you are a software developer and you're not using ChatGPT then you're at a huge disadvantage.
I believe a very prominent software engineer said that they believe in the next five years that software developer roles won't be in demand. I won't go as far to say that they will be obsolete but the whole point that I believe that person and I are trying to make is that, with access to these technologies being able to execute has just become a whole lot easier.
I believe it's actually not new – even about eight years ago, DeepMind, which is owned by Google, was already training AI agents in virtual worlds. So, it's actually the opposite way where it was the Metaverse, or virtual worlds which were progressing the development of AI, whereas now we're using AI to create these virtual worlds.
The type of machine learning techniques we're using now has pretty much surpassed the human capability to keep progressing because the AI is creating the further developments and enhancements to these models, whereas previously training AI agents in virtual worlds was for reinforcement learning.
All the godfathers of AI, all the techniques that they're known for, well, the current techniques that are being used with ChatGPT have just completely surpassed that.
That's great. I'm seeing a question that's come up on the screen from Chris.
Chris is asking in relation to his consultancy in Singapore to local businesses, if Alyse could comment on the application of Metaverse technologies to enhance the experience of employees.
Thanks for your question, Chris. I'll talk about three opportunities. The first one, which is a no-brainer, is training for customer service and sales in general. Walmart has probably onboarded about 1.3 million of their employees using VR and what they've done is they've taken video footage of all their stores and they're upskilling all their employees and new hires on how to do great customer service. This is one really quick example that you could look at. For bank branches, I would recommend looking into Talespin - they offer off-the-shelf soft skills training as well as a drag and drop tool to create custom learning modules.
Using the example of bank branches, the second opportunity is creating virtual bank branches. You could probably only offer very limited services in a virtual bank, but you could just build out the whole bank experience virtually. I have seen some people do that but I cannot actually talk about the advantages of doing that just yet.
The other thing I'm seeing with banks, is that it’s all about how much market share they can gain from retail customers and how they can enhance the digital banking experience. Now we think about how we can increase retention and how can we get them to come back to use your app.
A lot of people have been looking into how they can introduce web3 based loyalty programs to reward customers who are engaging with the app. I'm sure there's some rules and regulations you have to think about but web3 offers a lot of opportunities right now for training and customer engagement.
I think Alyse has covered a lot of things. Singapore is obviously a very interesting environment for you with NAS. You've got likes of DBS, UOB and OCBC with DBS mainly in charge of a lot of the blockchain efforts, at least publicly.
There are two things I’ll talk about from the banking perspective. Number one, I think what I really like are the loyalty elements, whether it be NFTs or other mechanisms to enable that. Loyalty is a worldwide problem for banks.
One of the key challenges I have is when you think about term deposits or home loans, you get a lot of great introductory rates for new customers but then your existing customers are thinking “I've been with you my whole life but you're giving this new customer a better rate. How does that work? How is that fair?” I think that this is a problem banks have been thinking about for a long time. I think there's an opportunity to reward loyalty. That’s a huge plus but obviously it’s got to make commercial sense.
Secondly, I think a lot of banking strategy teams are bumping their heads against the wall for this one, what does the future of files look like? What does the visual experience of a bank look like in the future? What do payment flows look like? What does that banking infrastructure look like? Do we need core banking systems? Can data be stored on the blockchain? These are long term infrastructure conversations that a lot of the banking strategy teams are thinking through. These conversations also depend on the size of the bank and where the bank fits in the broader ecosystem. If you’re one of the big three banks these are very big conversations, versus if you're one of the regional players.
Those are the two main things that I will allude to, as well as stable coins and whether banks should issue a stable as well, though we can kind of unpack that another time. The number one element is loyalty and number two is around the infrastructure of the banking business of the future, where the blockchain technology is relevant or how it can be sustainable.
We will see experimentations like the HSBC in the Metaverse program. There's a lot of trials and we'll see a lot of those experimentations and the viability and success of that. I think we just need to watch closely and give it a bit more time – it's still quite early stages and there's still a lot of compliance and technology questions to be answered.
On a on a non-banking note and still talking about loyalty, I’d like to bring it back to a local Australia conversation talking about Tennis Australia because I think they’ve done it quite creatively. They’ve got NFTs with tennis balls and cameras where you can find out if your ball hits a part of the court where championship points are won – if your ball hits there your NFT is recorded there.
At the same time, any additional benefits by holding on to those NFTs, for example, when the Australian Open comes around next year, special privileges and passes to games and events can be distributed through these entities. So, I think we've seen a lot of activity in the sports side locally. AFL is another example – they’re also trying to look into how to explore that space and adding entertainment and concerts.
There's a lot of opportunities using NFT – rather than these glorified JPEGs you'll see in local media, they are actually tangible applications of NFTs that could be relevant to any business around loyalty and other areas.
Interesting. One of the things I wanted to put to you Apurva is what are the friction points or problems with blockchain technology at the moment that are holding back technological wave of adoption?
We've just seen with ChaptGT an example of an enormous wave of adoption where there is a match between consumer expectation and technology. So, if we look at blockchain technology, what's your view on the major obstacles to wider adoption?
Great question Matt, I really want to break down this conversation from where to start and how to get on that journey to hopefully leave everyone with something tangible. In order for us to get there, I think understanding the barriers to scaling and entry in this space is really important. Again, my colleagues here can answer this in their own way, but in my experience in building Block Earner and actually being associated more with the DeFi side of things, there are three key barriers that pop up straight away.
The first thing is complexity. Often with new technology the developer know-how is quite small and that's why I spoke earlier about being amongst the first 100,000 builders in the space – the chances are that most people who are building in this space are already in that ecosystem. So, the complexity of the technology itself is one major barrier – trying to understand and unravel that and also waiting for ancillary technologies to develop.
At the moment, web3 by itself is not fully scalable and not fully sufficient. I think there are other activities including AI and a few other technologies that are developing simultaneously that at some stage will converge and make it really, really scalable.
That is exactly what happened with cellular technology. It took about 25 years from when cellular tech started developing in the R&D stage in early 80s and then there were touch screens, and shrinking of batteries to be able to have longer durations, screens had to become more detailed, network towers had to improve, broadband technology had to come in, and websites had to improve, to actually give us the phone that we are using today. There were ten industries simultaneously building chips, VLSI and so on 20-25 years ago.
Similarly, on a technical complexity standpoint, I think we are only seeing a couple angles of the software side involved, but there's a lot of the hardware side that still hasn't evolved and caught up yet. That will take a little bit longer. So that's one complexity.
Number two is one of the things that's fascinating to me, and I don't think this gets spoken about in the right spirit when it comes to web3 technology. When you talk about decentralisation there is an inherent challenge in decentralisation as a technology and the inherent challenges when you're taking away a centralised ecosystem that does the bulk of the thinking – there is a burden of education that falls on the consumer. But lack of education is a big reason why it's not scaling nearly as well as it should. Because we are used to being fast fed in a trusted centralised system, we don't have to educate ourselves about what's going on.
When Bitcoin started talking about blockchain tech and then started talking about decentralisation, the fundamental, inherent assumption was that people were going to participate more – it would be more democratic, and people would educate themselves about finances and this technology. But that takes a while and there is a lot of misinformation out there.
There's a lot of confusion out there and the education piece is a big piece. It has to be democratised. If you think about it, the internet also went through that learning curve. My grandparents and my parents are still not very well versed with the internet. So, it will take a while to sort of go through. Fundamentally, everyone trying to adopt web3 will have to take the challenge of actually educating users and suppliers and buyers will need to actually understand what this technology stands for.
Number three for me and the big one here is essentially regulation. I think we are starting to see that the world is starting to wake up, the governments are starting to wake up about this industry not going away anytime soon. It went through the classic phase of new technology adoption, first, they laughed at it, then they denied it, then they laughed at it again and now they're starting to accept it.
I'm going to reserve my commentary on how certain governments are taking regulations and how they're using the whip to regulate things, but I think regulation and clarity around regulation is going to be very important for businesses. We’ve seen that there are a bunch of countries that traditionally took a very heavy-handed approach from a regulatory standpoint and yet they've not been able to put web3 on the backburner.
At the same time, I think there's a lot of things around web3 that we need to get more clarity on for larger and more web2-oriented businesses to come out in the open and actually start investing in it and it not being in the fringes. So those are the three elements that I think will need to play out in the next three to five years.
Excellent. With 10 minutes left, if anyone online has questions, please put your hand up or if you’d like to connect and ask those questions directly, you are more than welcome to.
Matt, while we wait for a question, there’s one thing I wanted to add that I didn't quite get to before, that is, about something actionable for people to start with if they're not already dabbling in it right now.I speak to a lot of friends of mine in the web2 world because as Charlie alluded, between the three of us, I am the freshest web2 to web3 mover. Of course, Alyse is the expert in the smart contract side of things and Charlie's been building stable coins.
If you or your company hasn't started the journey yet, start thinking about how your business adapted to the internet or web2. Similar to that time the first step would have been, “OK, let's get a computer”, “let's get internet” and then “let's get browsing and playing with it”. For me the web3 penny dropped when I first took my hardware wallet, which is very simple device that you plug into a DeFi platform, and actually transacted on that using a simple signature in a DeFi ecosystem. Within seconds I was able to do a $40,000 equivalent of a crypto transaction and buy an NFT – it literally took seconds. This was a few years ago, but I still remember that “Aha!” moment where I just realised what had just happened. Also, it scared the hell out of me because I could have easily lost $40,000 in the same way by buying something crap. This is where “with great power comes great responsibility” comes in.
I would urge the folks listening, if they haven't quite started the journey yet, maybe start by actually buying your first $200 worth of crypto, or potentially trying to get a wallet somewhere if that's possible, or trying to use a DeFi platform like, 1inch, Highway, or Compound. There are so many out there to actually plug in your wallet and do an actual transaction.
I just want to close off with that idea. Start somewhere so that you start actually playing around with the technology that we are talking about. Maybe buy your first NFT. It can be a low value transaction, but I think in these little moments you will start to realise the power of what we are dealing with and how you can then start to use this for other creative things within your business.
To give you a very simple example, I said this to one of my friends recently who is a hedge fund operator. They are a small hedge fund with less than $200 million in funds and they decided to play around with buying NFTs and so on. They then came back to me and wrote a white paper to me and said, “Look, here's an idea that we've cracked – we're going to go and create NFTs for our hedge funds and instead of people depositing money with us directly and us sort of acknowledging their deposit and then giving them quarterly results, we are going to create an NFT which will be the equivalent of a $10K tranche of a token in the hedge fund”. So, instead of depositing money directly with the hedge fund, they're going to actually buy the NFT. So, if you wanted to put down $1,000,000, you're going to buy basically $1,000,000 worth of NFTs and those NFTs in itself will be tokens with a built-in return mechanism to it that will give them the return space and hedge funds performance.
So, it was very interesting for me to see that idea come from just a few weeks of playing with NFTs. Of course, they are very small hedge fund with probably less than 500 users, but at the same time they were able to start. So, these are just some of my thoughts around where to get started.
Fantastic Insights there, Apurva. With what’s been happening with the collapse of a number of different platforms and the sudden collapse of liquidity in the banking system serving exchanges, I had a conversation with Charlie, and I said “Gee, I better move that little bit of crypto I’ve got off the centralised exchange and put it on my own device” which I then did in 20 minutes. I astounded myself that I’ve actually managed to do that.
And then only days later I was reading about the improvements to the Ethereum protocol for account abstraction and how this is now going to allow for a wallet destination to be a domain name. Again, I thought that I should get myself online and get a .f website pretty quickly. As you’ve said, we need to become more involved in those practical things to better understand the opportunities.
We have one last question from Chris, thanks for that. The question is about other examples I can think of where this is relevant to those with very traditional organisations and traditional business models. So, take Ticketmaster as an example, they sell online tickets, and they've also introduced an option to add NFT tickets when you buy a digital ticket, which can turn into a physical ticket.
That NFT can act as memorabilia. A lot of people actually collect or used to collect ticket stubs, and they'd just keep it in their shoebox. Then it could become very valuable, like, you know, the Spice Girls or the Backstreet Boys concert you attended 20 years ago. So that's another way in which you could merge the physical and the digital and introduce it into your very traditional web2 business model.
Ok, so we're going to wrap it up there. For anyone who's still online, if you've got thoughts about what you'd like to hear in another session like this, whether that is guiding you through some of those actions that that Apurva was just referring to, buying your own NFT, establishing your own hard wallet etc, if you have any other ideas for a future session, we will certainly give it some thought and let you all know when we decide to get together again.
In the meantime, let us know what you thought of the session in your comments or online on LinkedIn, and I'd just I'd like to thank Alyse, Apurva and Charlie for joining us. We wish you all the best and thank you very much for participating in the session.